Max Lucado: Thank you very much.
Pat Robertson: God, bless you.
Max Lucado: Thank you. It's a great privilege.
Pat Robertson: You are one of the most prolific authors.
I think it is 30 books, including children's books. And God
just almost gives you the gift of a poet; the words that you
write are just so eloquent...
Max Lucado: Thank you very much.
Pat Robertson: It's almost like blank verse. How did
that come about? I mean, is that just something God just laid
on you or did you grow up in a literary family?
Max Lucado: Well, I've always loved words. I really
have. But I never aspired to be a writer. But I was a missionary
for five years in Brazil. And the first year that we were in
Brazil, I would use my evenings to work in English, because
we were studying Portuguese all day and I wanted to do something
different. And so I began journaling some thoughts. Somebody
said, why don't you try to get those published? I did and I
mailed a manuscript to 15 publishers and the 15th one said yes.
And that was 16 or 17 years ago and it's still going today.
Pat Robertson: Are you pastoring at all ?
Max Lucado: I am. I'm a full-time at the Oak Hills Church
of Christ in San Antonio, Texas.
Pat Robertson: Fabulous. Well, listen, this new book
is a different look at the crucifixion. Why did you choose these,
quote, "implements of torture," to write a book?
Max Lucado: It is different. It is. I've not found anything
like this. It may be out there, but what I did is I looked at
each of the different, I call them inanimate objects of the
Pat Robertson: Right.
Max Lucado: ...like the nails and the crown of thorns,
the cross itself, the path to the cross, because it occurred
to me that, you know, if you or I knew we just had one day to
live, we're going to be very deliberate about that day. We're
going to select who we talk to. We're going to select where
we are, everything about that day is going to be orchestrated.
How much more would God orchestrate his final day on Earth?
And so everything about that day has symbolism and significance.
And so I just went in looking at all of the different props
of the passion, so to speak saying, what do the nails have to
say to us? What about the crown of thorns? I was just stunned
at the symbolism.
Pat Robertson: Tell us, for instance, take the nails,
take the crown of thorns. What symbolism did you find?
Max Lucado: Well, I learned, for example, about the
nails. One of the curious things about the nails is that it's
Paul who explains the purpose of the nails to us. The gospels
don't refer to the nails but Paul in the Epistle Colossians
2:14 says that Jesus canceled the debt that held the charges
against us. He took it and nailed it to Christ's cross. And
so the picture there, you know, Pat, is so powerful. The list
of my sins and your sins...
Pat Robertson: Yes. Yes.
Max Lucado: ...has been nailed to the cross and the
blood of Christ has blotted out, the Bible says, covered all
of those mistakes. What a powerful image that is.
Pat Robertson: That's tremendous. And he made a show
of them. It's almost like he laughed at the devil, saying, 'I'm
taking you to the wall.'
Max Lucado: He did. He did. That's right. That's right.
Pat Robertson: Well, what about the crown of thorns?
What did you find there?
Max Lucado: Well, when you imagine the crown that Christ
gave up and the crown that he took on, he went from the crown
of glory where the angels were worshipping him to the crown
of mockery where the soldiers were spitting on him. What a powerful
portrayal of the descent of how far he went from heaven. Not
just to Earth, but to the lowest part of the Earth, where he
would even be spat upon by men, which is another symbol of the
cross. I'd never thought about the spit. Pilate told the soldiers
to say whip Jesus. He never told the soldiers to spit on him.
That just came out of the evil. If you want to hurt somebody's
heart, you spit on them. And so Christ carried that evil of
the soldiers all the way to the cross. Never did he wipe it
off. He took our evil to the cross with him.
Pat Robertson: It's almost the ultimate despising of
Max Lucado: It is.
Pat Robertson: Isn't it? It's a sign of, `You're despicable.
I spit on you.'
Max Lucado: It really is. It really is. Can you imagine
that he could have boomeranged that spit back in their face.
Pat Robertson: Sure, sure.
Max Lucado: But he did that for us to show us how much
Pat Robertson: The blood in the dirt, what did you find
Max Lucado: Well, I was really struck by the symbolism
of when Christ's side was pierced with the sword, blood and
water came forth.
Pat Robertson: Right.
Max Lucado: And, you know, throughout the New Testament,
water represents the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood
represents, of course, the redemption that we have. And they
Pat Robertson: Yes.
Max Lucado: ...you know, as a picture, what God wants
to give you and give me, and that is forgiveness and power.
But not just forgiveness with no power. Not power with no forgiveness,
but they come at the same time. He gives us forgiveness and
Pat Robertson: Ladies and gentlemen, we've got a special
with Max on the 13th of April, Good Friday.
Max Lucado: It's the "He Chose the Nails," television
special. It's Jesus, Pat, from beginning to end. It's all about
Christ and some powerful music, some heart-changing music. Some
of the best artists in America like Twila Paris and Wes King.
Some of them have written songs to go along with this. It presents
the cross of Christ from beginning to end.
Pat Robertson: Max Lucado, this is a study book for
leaders and the book itself, "He Chose the Nails." You've got
a video; you've got a whole book in here for study guides, and
Max Lucado: Exactly. It's set up for home Bible study
groups or Sunday school classes. We did special video segments
that people can look and watch together and then open the book
and study it together. And I hope it encourages people to think
about the cross.
Pat Robertson: It sounds as moving as anything you can
imagine, ladies and gentlemen. As we come closer to Easter and
Good Friday, the suffering of the passion of Jesus, what a marvelous
way to get a fresh understanding through the eyes of Max Lucado.
It's published by Word Publishing. Max, it's a joy to have you.
Max Lucado: Well, thank you.
Pat Robertson: We just thank God for the gift he's given
you, my brother.
Max Lucado: Well, I thank God for you. I sure do.
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